Speeches by Wood.

“Q That independence is balanced with many of the provisions in the Bill, particularly around the information notices and the other Cabinet Office parts of the Bill, which come down to decision making by the Minister for the Cabinet Office. How does the independence of the PSFA interrelate with the personal sign-offs re…”

“Q I want to go back to a question that I asked Mr Smart earlier. One of the main measures in the Bill is to move the PSFA from the Cabinet Office to make it an independent body. What do you see as the practical benefits? How will the public sector benefit from that new status? Mark Cheeseman: The practical benefit to c…”

“Thank you very much.”

“Q What recourse would individuals have who are adversely affected, whether it is by machine-made decision making or even human decision making? Ellen Lefley: That is where it gets quite tricky, because of course the first barrier would be even knowing that you have been subject to any kind of algorithmic decision makin…”

“Q I want to stay on the artificial intelligence framework. You have spoken about the changes being made in the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. Other than the undertakings given by Ministers, what legal restrictions would there be on the operation of artificial intelligence in decision-making and investiga…”

“Q Are there any other areas where you think the Bill could approach things differently? Is anything missing that you think should be in the Bill? Daniel Cichocki: Given that the eligibility verification measure is one of the more extensive powers in the Bill, we think that it may be appropriate to require the Minister …”

“Q Is there any measure of how long it currently takes banks to respond to information requests from Government, such as those from HMRC, under existing powers? Daniel Cichocki: A variety of powers exist to date. Some have time measures built in for compliance with them and some are voluntary. I think you have to ensure…”

“Q Presumably you agree with the previous witness that, in general, banks are reasonably well adapted to responding to such notices. Do you think that 10 days is reasonable for them? Daniel Cichocki: Certainly. The banks share very significant amounts of information with Government Departments and law enforcement to ens…”

“Q Do you have any idea what the additional man hours or potential cost burden could be for a typical bank in a typical year? Daniel Cichocki: It is quite difficult at this stage to perform that level of assessment, partly because so much detail of the measure will be set out in the code of practice. We are obviously ve…”

“Q Do banks have any sense of how many information notices and other applications they are likely to receive? Are there any expectations regarding the scale of the undertaking? Daniel Cichocki: We are awaiting more detail. We have high-level indicators that the Government are likely to use the measure to require banks t…”

“Q What consultation has there been with industry to make sure that the eligibility verification measures are workable and that your members will know what is required of them? Daniel Cichocki: A number of conversations with the industry have taken place since the measure was announced. We have been very clear since the…”

“Q Obviously, you have not been involved in such direct investigations, but just to give us some idea of the quantum we are talking about, what period of time do you think would count as reasonably speedy, so that it would not endanger an investigation? Are we talking about days, weeks or months? John Smart: I think wee…”

“Q The legislation sets out a specific period of time for a lot of those powers, so would it be logical to assume that for some smaller businesses, it may take longer to comply than for multinational banks that are doing it regularly? John Smart: That is true. I have spent 35 years investigating fraud, and the challenge…”

“Q The provisions of the Bill are not confined to financial institutions, are they? John Smart: They are not, no. I do not know which institutions are likely to be required to provide information. There will be individuals and institutions. Other institutions might find it more difficult, but there is an appeals process…”

“Based on your experience with the PSFA so far, is that consistent with the length of time that, in most cases, it takes such organisations to reply to requests for information? John Smart: The consistency question is an interesting one. I think a lot of those powers are likely to be applied specifically in relation to …”

“Q For a lot of the provisions in the Bill, those in receipt of orders potentially have a very short timeframe to comply with the demands. John Smart: Yes.”

“Q This is very much a Bill of two halves, and many of the powers that will be given to the PSFA are equivalent to those that are being given to DWP investigators. The obvious difference is the use of reasonable force. Do you think that the nature of PSFA investigations means that that power will not really be required,…”

“Q How would you see that independence interacting with the decision-making processes in the Bill, which largely rely on ministerial or departmental decisions in terms of the orders for information? John Smart: That needs to be determined in terms of the overall governance structure of the organisation, as and when it i…”

“Q At the heart of this Bill is the establishment of the PSFA as a separate body outside the Cabinet Office. What do you see as the practical benefits that that move will bring? How will you better be able to serve the public sector? John Smart: I think being fully independent would probably be helpful, although I suspe…”

“Q Do either of you think that anything is missing from the Bill that would help in the fight against fraud and would be appropriate in legislation like this? Kristin Jones: My career has been dealing with fraud in the public and private sector, and I think it is important that when fraud is investigated and you discove…”