Speeches by Wood.

“Q The document goes on to say that “the drafting of the code ought to begin early enough to enable a decision as to whether statutory provision is required”. Has that drafting been done early enough? Andrew Western: As I said, we will debate this in more detail as we come to the relevant stages. I think that we have do…”

“Q In appendix E, which relates to codes of practice and legislation, the first paragraph says: “Where it is proposed to introduce a code of practice in a way or for a purpose which departs from the guidance below, Ministers should be aware that this is likely to be controversial, particularly in the House of Lords.” Ha…”

“It is to you both as Ministers. It is the Government’s “Guide to Making Legislation”. Andrew Western: Yes.”

“Q If I may continue, and I am drawing to a conclusion, the Cabinet Office has a document, “Guide to Making Legislation”. Are you aware of it? Andrew Western: Is that to me or Georgia?”

“Q This is looking a lot like the King Henry VIII powers that the Government railed against in opposition for many years. Andrew Western: I would not accept that and I do not think that that is the case. I would say that we require that flexibility. Even with the six weeks, if there are problems in the process, we would…”

“Q So they will be published, but in terms of scrutiny, will there be any role for Parliament in agreeing or disregarding those codes? Andrew Western: I am happy to confirm precisely—because it may be that Members, as we go through the Committee stage, make it very clear what their expectations would be—what the current…”

“Q What role will Parliament have in scrutinising those codes of practice? Andrew Western: The codes of practice will be laid before both Houses. They will be published as the legislation sets out.”

“Q You say that you cannot bring forward the code at this point, because the Bill may change depending on amendments, yet you are able to bring forward a draft code ahead of the House of Lords Committee stage, where presumably, you will have rather less control over what amendments are passed. Surely if that argument we…”

“Q Andrew, you have just come out of a period in opposition. You will understand the difficulty that this puts on Committee members being asked to consider legislation, fundamental aspects of which will depend on details in the code of practice. You seem to be suggesting that we will not see them until the House of Comm…”

“Q A lot of the questions to witnesses today have revolved around the code of conduct. There are several parts of the Bill that refer to a code or codes of conduct. Can you give us an idea of how those will operate? Are we looking at a single code or multiple documents? What will their status be? Andrew Western: For the…”

“Q But I am right in saying that that will be at a systemic level, rather than being able to say, case by case, “That was the wrong decision, and I am changing that decision.” Mark Cheeseman: There will be case-by-case review, but you are right; it will be more, “Here is an issue that should be dealt with, and here’s ho…”

“Q It is certainly a minimum, but a decision as to whether that is the right period of time is very much made within the organisation that is asking for the information, rather than there being any formal and independent process for the person responding to that request to be able to say, “Actually, we just can’t do thi…”

“Q Does a review of the Minister’s decision also then go back to the original decision maker? Mark Cheeseman: It is slightly different—it goes back within the structure, but the review of that decision is done by a separate authorised officer from the original authorised officer who did it.”

“Q It is absolutely a minimum, but is it correct that varying from that minimum is at the discretion of the Minister? Mark Cheeseman: Yes, in the legislation.”

“Q In terms of the obligations on organisations that are issued with information notices, based on your current experience, how many of the organisations that you approach asking for information typically respond within 10 days? Mark Cheeseman: It is important to remember that the 10 days in the legislation is a minimum…”

“We saw this in other legislation under the previous Government. It is not uncommon for Ministers to give an undertaking that at least a draft code might be published before legislation returns to Parliament for final decisions to be made. I know this is, perhaps, a question to ask of Ministers in a future session, but …”

“Q For those of us who have been asked to make a decision on whether the powers in the legislation before us are reasonable and proportionate, as we have heard from one witness after another today, it is very difficult to make that decision without knowing how they will be carried out in practice. That obviously means k…”

“Q How close do you feel we are to having at least an idea of what a code of practice would look like, based on the PSFA’s experience in its current form? Mark Cheeseman: The Public Sector Fraud Authority has been created by bringing together people from other spaces. These powers are designed by His Majesty’s Revenue a…”

“Q Is there a reason why it is not possible to refer to those standards in the legislation, if that is the accepted norm? Mark Cheeseman: I am not sure whether one would refer to it in the legislation. It could be in the code of practice, and aspects like that.”

“Q The provisions in the Bill are fairly vague about who can exercise those powers directly. Compared with the investigatory powers created and set out in other legislation, should we be a bit more specific about what that experience, those qualifications or that seniority looks like? Mark Cheeseman: The Bill currently …”