Speeches by Osborne.

“If there is not a perfect model, we are going around in circles. Is there one used in other countries that we think might work?”

“I picked up on your point earlier that you are not aware of any hospices that are in financial distress. I mean, that—”

“Very briefly, would you suggest more long-term funding models? In local government, we have a three-year settlement cycle now. Lastly, on ICBs, in my area the ICB is supporting the Wisdom hospice. I am very lucky to have an NHS-commissioned service there, but it is a postcode lottery around the country. Is there an exa…”

“To follow up on the cultural point, you said that there has been an employer survey. The organisational numbers are in figure 1, with 254 people. You have then indicated that you have 350 contractors. How many people internally have been asked about the culture in relation to the change programme, and have you also ask…”

“If I may follow up on that, let’s say there are 20 people in house who are dealing with the programme change and hundreds who are not in house, you are basing your judgment of the culture on just those 20. Is there a risk that you are getting a particular view about the programme change from a small number of people, b…”

“I might come back to that in my questions.”

“If I can move on, recruitment is obviously a key element of the success of the future programme. You have an internal capacity, which you have increased. I notice from figure 1 that the staffing numbers have increased. You are using a lot of external contractors. You are also borrowing staff from Treasury and elsewhere…”

“Lastly, on milestones, Chris mentioned the milestones that you are holding contractors to account by. Paragraphs 3.7 to 3.9 in the Report note that there have been previous reviews—the Gartner review, for instance. You told the NAO that you “had resolved 23 of the 42 highest-priority end-to-end design issues”. That rev…”

“You have spent £43 million on external consultancy contracts. I have probably not read many Reports where there are so many different consultancies mentioned. There is Capgemini throughout—there seem to be a lot of external contractors highlighted, which then begs the question of whether they have been measured in the …”

“I appreciate that clarity. You have admitted that you are at the interventionist end. Do you think that the organisation accepts that it is at the interventionist end? Does the public understand that, given we are where we are, there is a systemic issue that needs to be identified within the risk profile of the organis…”

“The reason I suggest it might is because, clearly, this programme—as my colleagues have suggested—is not only delayed; it is over-budget. You are right that you are hitting your current key delivery metrics—I know you keep going back to that; as you are a monopoly service, it is good that you are—but the concern is tha…”

“Okay. I will move on to contingency around supplier risks in particular. Looking at Atos, and financial and other organisations—you are moving to multiple platforms—is supplier risk, or mitigation of supplier risk, a concern for you?”

“I asked that because paragraph 20 of the Report indicates that there is “more work to do” on governance arrangements and risk management processes. It recognises that “arrangements for managing Programme risks and issues were inadequate” and that that has a potential knock-on effect: “an extremely high level of risk be…”

“On risk, it says in paragraph 20 that you have introduced a new risk management framework. With the issues of supplier risk that we have just mentioned and the programme risks that I started with, do you feel that the risk management framework that you have introduced is cogent enough to pick up on some of those elemen…”

“Okay. I have a series of questions specifically on the success of the future programme, including this element on recruitment. Your current delivery metrics show strong performance in net financing, customer satisfaction and value to taxpayers. Do you think that the metrics you currently have are a fair way of measurin…”

“Given the risks that scream from the Report, it might be helpful for us to see the new risk management framework that you are putting in place. Clearly, there is possibly a future ongoing liability if things are not correct on that. Ensuring that we have those robust risk management processes would be helpful.”

“I have two questions. In responding to my colleague’s question earlier, you mentioned something like a naughty list. I would be very keen to see the detail of which Departments are currently on course to reduce consultancy fees versus those that you perhaps have challenged. Could you provide this Committee with more in…”

“The reason I ask is because, if you do not have that information, how do you know what is consultancy versus audit? I will give you an example. Take forensic accounting, for instance. They are providing accounting services, but they could give advice in terms of how to restructure a business to ensure that you do not h…”

“To come back on that last point about why I ask the question, let me give you an example. If £1 billion was given by DWP to Ernst & Young over the course of the year, but £800 million of that is for audit and only £200 million is consultancy, the actual amount of money going out the door to an external provider to enga…”

“In 1.21 on page 19, it says, “Available data show that 143 of the 153 local authorities”, and then in paragraph 28 in appendix 1 it says that 115 have responded.”