Speeches by Lowe.

“My question is for Cat. I am a little confused, so I would be grateful if you could just clarify. The NAO Report says, “As of 2022-23, central Government spend on consultants was estimated by HM Treasury to be approximately £1.36 billion, but other sources suggest the figure could be significantly higher”. Was it signi…”

“One would think that, with so many new people working for the civil service, an administrative burden would not be a problem, but logic probably does not play too big a part in it.”

“It is an estimate; it is not actual.”

“It is extraordinary that you do not know the exact figures. If you are running a business, you know the exact figures. You have it and you can look at it, but it sounds to me like they are all estimates and are all up in the air.”

“Is that not what we need to see in order to be able to decide whether you have halved it? Your stated aim is to halve. In order to halve something, you need to know what the figure you are halving is, do you not?”

“It is consultants, really.”

“If the Chair will indulge me, I note that the civil service now amounts to a headcount of about 551,000, which is up 35% on 2016. When you are hiring all these new people, are you hiring people with the skills that you are spending money on with consultants? You say that you are now doing an analysis of what skills the…”

“So we can assume that these other sources are wrong. Are they wrong that spending is significantly higher?”

“You might expect them to, but do you have that detail?”

“Do you have a dashboard of what you have spent with each of these consultants? Can you tell me how much you spent with Deloitte or with each of these consultants in a concise spreadsheet? In my businesses, we look at how much we spend each year with each of our suppliers, and we then beat them up to get a discount. Are…”

“You do not know.”

“Was there a reason why you shut this Government consulting hub that people seem to think worked quite well and seemed quite logical to me?”

“What does it cost? Do we know?”

“James, I was listening to your introduction, and you talked about missing data. What is the definition of missing data?”

“So when you say missing, it just has not been submitted. Is that right?”

“That is all very well, Conrad, but at the end of the day, what is the sanction on local authorities for not populating this data? Is there any?”

“I am juxtaposing this against the private sector, where I run lots of companies. If I tell HMRC that I have missing data when it comes to my tax return, what do you think happens? Do you think they accept that, or do you think they say, “I’m terribly sorry, we’re going to assess you anyway”? Is there a divergence betwe…”

“Er—[Laughter.]”

“Good question.”

“It is all a function of interest rates, James. But at the end of the day, if the Bank of England is being covered for any losses by the Treasury, surely he who says, pays? I mean, it should be the Treasury’s decision and not the MPC’s decision.”