Speeches by Caliskan.

“With all due respect, that is what I am asking you and what I am probing—”

“And that is: is that judgment correct, given that we still have a backlog?”

“You can’t have that blank cheque, though.”

“So, fundamentally, the way you do things is broken. You are saying that even if there were not an increase in the number of cases coming through, you would still see an increase in the backlog because of the nature of the cases, which are complicated and take longer.”

“Post covid, but the covid period included the pre-covid period too. Is it fair to say that there was also an increase in the backlog of cases pre-covid?”

“So you view the Nightingale courts as temporary measures.”

“So there is an acceptance that there was already a trend in train.”

“But the trajectory was going up pre-covid. I ask that because £477 million was given to the Department to deal with the covid backlog, and I want to probe that a bit more. I want to understand whether it was just for the covid backlog or whether it was also to tackle an increasing number of cases pre-covid.”

“But they are all interlinked, aren’t they?”

“Nick, did you want to add anything?”

“But there has been a long-standing issue. It was exacerbated by covid, but there is a view that there was a longer-standing issue. If you don’t agree with that, that is fine; I am just trying to understand.”

“The reason I am probing this is that there is such a significant backlog figure and Department officials are being asked to come up with a new way of dealing with it. If it is a temporary issue caused by covid, rather than a longer-term issue caused by a greater flow of cases coming in, that might dictate what structur…”

“They are not temporary measures; they are fundamental policy changes that dictate the number of cases coming in. That is different from a covid period where there would be a temporary demand.”

“Given what you have said, do you accept that there is a lack of joined-up thinking between the three levels of justice—policing, courts and prisons—and that one of the impacts has been this huge backlog?”

“If a policy decision is made around policing that would lead to more arrests, that would inevitably mean that more people would be charged and there would be pressure on the courts. Was that not planned for?”

“Dame Antonia, forgive me, but the two things that were temporary—the strikes and covid—are over, and the numbers are continuing to increase.”

“I understand what you are saying, but there seems to be a contradiction. If there wasn’t capacity—”

“Both things can be true. You can plan well, but a Government just does not give you enough resources. Those two things can be true, and if that is the case, it is helpful for you to say that to us. Or, actually, perhaps it did not matter how much we planned, because at that moment in time we did have enough resources, …”

“But weren’t Nightingale courts set up to deal with the covid situation? Why have they continued to exist for three years?”

“They are very expensive, aren’t they? For example, in Croydon over the past year, almost £3 million has been spent on the Leonardo hotel. I just want to understand because, putting covid aside, there are some longer-term challenges about the existing estate. Is it really the case that the Nightingale courts are tempora…”