Speeches by Madders.

“I just want to delve a little deeper into the rules of origin, particularly on automotive. You may be aware that the temporary arrangements come to an end at the start of next year. My understanding is that that is going to be hugely problematic, particularly in terms of EV batteries. If those rules come in as currentl…”

“Does that mean that you have spoken to your auditors about this, or that you haven’t?”

“I will ask about Government contracts in a second, but I want to return to provision for some payment by Fujitsu, because it is fair to say that we are all a bit incredulous that there appears to be no provision at all. What conversations have you had with your auditors about how that should be treated?”

“Just to try to get some balance, are there any redeeming features to the HSS? Are there clients who go away content with what has been offered there? Or is it simply just a hurdle that you have to go through?”

“Can I just check, Dr Hudgell, that your view is also that more complex cases should just go straight to the appeal with DBT?”

“Do the other witnesses have anything to add to that?”

“You are pretty clear about the value of the offers being made. Are they consistent across the board, or do you find that they can vary quite widely, depending on who is dealing with them at the other end?”

“So you are telling your clients before you even start that this is going to take over a year and that they are going to have to appeal almost certainly?”

“So they make no reference at all to appeals?”

“Can I just come back to you on that point about the appeal offers being much more satisfactory? A judicial analogy would be that once an appeal court has made a decision, the lower court—the HSS—would respond to that and adjust its offers accordingly. Is there any sign of that so far?”

“In terms of the Horizon Shortfall Scheme, your evidence previously has been about delays in providing information and the value of offers being made. Do you feel that in the round things have got better since you last gave evidence to the Committee?”

“So your position essentially is that we have had to do it and there really was not any other way for all these contracts. Could I just come back to the provision that has not been made yet by Fujitsu? Are you in any way discomfited by the fact that it does not appear to have made any accounting for this so far?”

“So you are saying that that would apply to every other contract that has been issued to Fujitsu since—that it is the only way the service, or whatever it is, would be able to continue?”

“So for the hundreds of millions of pounds of Government contracts that have been issued in the last 18 months, you are confident that every single one of those was absolutely necessary to be issued—the only way it could be delivered was through Fujitsu?”

“Moving on to Government contracts, obviously you caught the exchange that we had. My interpretation—this is for you to agree or disagree—is that when Fujitsu is bidding for new contracts that may be of a previously existing service, that is in a sense a new contract. Would you agree with that analysis, or do you think …”

“Have you looked at the overall costs to the public purse, not just to Government Departments but to outside agencies, of dealing with all this? Has there been any effort to bring that together at this stage?”

“In terms of the figures, we obviously have the £1.8 billion compensation. I take it that is your starting point for conversations. But will there be other areas of financial compensation that you would look at—such as the millions that must have been spent on lawyers, accountants and IT experts, by all the bodies? Is t…”

“But when you give the bill, for want of a better description, to Fujitsu, you are going to have to have some sort of rationale for it, so are you thinking about how that might be constructed?”

“Okay, but if Sir Wyn does not produce the recommendations in a way that gives you a nice straightforward percentage—for want of a better description—to provide to Fujitsu, have you given any thought to how you might start to construct something?”

“Mr McDougall, you and your predecessors have always said that the time for calculating a portion of compensation in terms of Fujitsu’s contribution will come when Sir Wyn Williams’s recommendations come forth. I take it from that that you are confident that he will express them in a way that allows you to do that.”