Speeches by Murray.

“Have they been checked coming into the common travel area already?”

“Okay, so it is EU nationals that are the challenge?”

“You seem to be describing that as a sort of pan-UK challenge, rather than specifically saying that Northern Ireland is a particularly attractive part of the UK because it can be accessed via a land border from the common travel area. That is how I interpret what you are saying. Moving to my next question, the common tr…”

“I want to pick up the point about Mears before I move on to another question. You said that Mears holds the contract for the whole of Northern Ireland. What is the total cost of that contract, both in total and per asylum seeker per year? To follow that up, is community cohesion a KPI that Mears is held to account for …”

“My exact final question is about the lag between how business models adapt and use new technologies and how quickly a force can catch up. What is your judgment of how speedily that can be done and how it could be improved?”

“I absolutely take the point about the community link and the trust being there. I am driving more at other technologies that might become more available. For example, facial recognition could give you intelligence about what is happening in the community if you are able to roll that out and get the investment for it.”

“Thanks, and apologies for being late. I want to pick up on a point you made about community intelligence and how that is the key currency that you need to pursue. What is your view on the role of technology and how you can secure new technology to help with that? You already referred to waste-water analysis and things,…”

“I know we are running over a little bit, Mr Court, but you wanted to come in.”

“Have you done any exploratory work with local authorities or third-sector organisations? Has the Home Office asked you to do any work looking at how medium-sized sites might work in communities?”

“Thank you, Minister. The asylum system that we have in the UK is, clearly, terrible for local communities and terrible for asylum seekers, and I accept you inherited it, but it is also terrible for the taxpayer. The National Audit Office has estimated the 10-year asylum contract to have gone from £4 billion to £15 bill…”

“Did you have any discussions with local authorities where you said, “We are planning to spend tens of millions of pounds accommodating 500 people? Can a local authority take that amount of money?” Local authorities provide accommodation for a lot less money.”

“Yes, but it was the pandemic that triggered the move to hotels and you are still using hotels.”

“Please do not avoid the question. You must have a percentage figure. What is it?”

“Okay, but with respect, Mr Lakey, it is a bit more than chests of drawers. We have had reports of people being overcrowded, people sleeping in rooms with no curtains, people sleeping in rooms with bedbugs, with vermin and with holes in the roof, people dying and their next-of-kin not being informed, and people dying an…”

“Okay, but we know that the Home Office has a poor track record when it comes to large sites. Wethersfield, which we visited—and I accept this was not on your watch but was done by the previous Government—was supposed to cost £5 million and ended up costing £45 million to set up. Scampton went from £5 million to £27 mil…”

“I want to ask one final question, picking up on your answer to Robbie Moore earlier. You said that one benefit of large sites is essentially community cohesion, even if it is not cost. It is not the hotel in the city centre that everyone recognises. First, you have just said it is a 97,500-person estate, we are talking…”

“Why not?”

“I do not care whether you agreed it. When you are inspected, it is not about whether you agree with the outcome of the inspection. The inspector makes that call. Previously, 70% of the time you failed an inspection. You have just told us that at huge taxpayer’s expense, on a significant public contract, you have made i…”

“That is unacceptable.”

“No, no, no, not the crucial KPIs, all KPIs. Key performance indicators, so they are all key. Are they improving across all the KPIs?”