Speeches by Johnson.

“If Northern Ireland has decided that it wants higher fines and if, as the Minister has said, he wants to take the idea of a smoke-free generation seriously, why, given that the law as it stands in England and Wales is for him to decide—certainly in England, as he is the Minister with responsibility for public health—do…”

“The Minister has somewhat contradicted himself. On the one hand he says that he does not agree with the amendments because he wants to leave the courts free to issue a bigger fine to a rogue trader, and I have sympathy with that argument. But why, in Northern Ireland, should a rogue trader be subject to a higher fine?”

“The Minister’s response was very interesting. However, could he respond further to a couple of the questions that were asked? First, is it intentional that there is a difference in the level of the fines?”

“Thank you, Mr Dowd. That concludes my remarks on this group of amendments.”

“As the Minister is in the mood for answering questions, would he like to intervene to say whether the guidance on who specifically will be liable for the fines has been written and published?”

“My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I suggest, so that I do not try the patience of the Chair, that we discuss that when we get to clause 1 stand part, because it speaks to the substance of the clause rather than the substance of these amendments.”

“I understand the Minister’s point. However, my point was that even in a world where things are illegal, we do have aggravating and mitigating circumstances in law. I suggest that, particularly as the rolling generations get older, selling to a child becomes an aggravating offence. I ask the Government to consider that.”

“That is not quite what I meant. I guess the question is this: if someone has sold tobacco products to a person of 45 who should not have them because they are now illegal, that is an offence—it is breaking the law as set out in the clause—and would see a penalty applied—[Interruption.] Well, it may see them liable for …”

“Thank you, Mr Dowd, for the guidance, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor for his intervention. The age of the customer is important. The principle of existing tobacco legislation is that it protects children under the age of 18 from tobacco. This legislation will protect some adults from tobacco as well.…”

“The hon. Gentleman is right to go back to the evidence. One of the things we were told in the evidence provided by National Trading Standards and the Local Government Association, particularly on Tuesday, was that they want discretion, but also that they want first-time offenders to be treated more leniently. That was …”

“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I shall try to be clearer. I strongly believe that these products should not be sold to children—I believe that personally; we have a free vote on this in my party. I strongly agree with the vast majority of the Bill, and certainly with the rolling age for tobacco. H…”

“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. Those who know me or who have listened to my speeches on tobacco and vaping will be in no doubt of my support for the Bill, and I believe that the criminal justice system has its part to play in ensuring compliance, particularly where people recklessly or even deli…”

“I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. It brings us to the heart of the next part of my speech, which is the inconsistency between different parts of the United Kingdom. We will come on to other inconsistencies in further amendments to clause 1 relating to age verification processes. As for why there are differe…”

“Amendment 56 proposes a change to clause 1 and specifically targets the penalty provision for offenses under the sale of tobacco section on page 2, line 9. It suggests adding the phrase “, save if it is a first offence.” at the end of the current penalty clause, effectively modifying the penalties described for violati…”

“I certainly do not want to press the amendments to a vote, but it may be that other members of the Committee do.”

“I understand that opinion, and I guess that is what is behind amendment 17, which was proposed by the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell. The evidence—certainly that which we heard on Tuesday from the chief medical officer and others—suggests that raising the age as far as 25 will help, and the Government’s impact assessm…”

“According to clause 1, my hon. Friend is right.”

“Yes; if my hon. Friend knows the answer, I would be delighted to hear it.”

“Further to that point of order, Sir Roger—”

“We have heard dreadful stories of retailers who have experienced nasty abuse and, in some cases, violence when they have asked for someone’s age. If somebody knew for certain that they would have their ID checked, it would no longer be an evaluation by the shopkeeper of their age, but merely a simple, expected transact…”