Speeches by Esterson.

“Not phoenixing as such. I am asking whether the requirement to use the money up in the scheme period has attracted people who were not up to the job, so we effectively saw cowboy installers coming in, despite the accreditation process.”

“And then the certification process covers it, right. I have one final question for now, which is probably for Kiera Schoenemann. There is the issue of the really short-term nature of schemes, as well as the changes in schemes, enabling substandard installers to enter the market in large numbers because money needed to …”

“We heard from the first panel, though, that there is a difference between the organisations being suspended and the individual installers. What assurance can you give that it will be not just the organisations but the individual installers they contract with, some of whom are not directly employed?”

“After the discovery that it was 98%?”

“Although of course it subsequently emerged that nearly every installation of external wall insulation was inadequate. The scale of this was much bigger than initially thought.”

“Are we talking about surveyors doing the work?”

“Are you confident that the support for the individual person who is carrying out this accreditation certification process is also being assessed adequately?”

“Strangely enough, we are.”

“That doesn’t sound terribly encouraging if we have the existing problems and they are hardwired in.”

“All very laudable. Is that what we can expect for the continuation of the existing schemes and for the warm homes plan?”

“Between you, you have beautifully confirmed what the NAO Report says in paragraph 21: “The government created an overly complex system that ultimately failed”. It names DESNZ, Ofgem, TrustMark and UKAS, and says there is fragmentation and confusion over responsibilities and accountabilities. Have you learned from this?…”

“It comes from the 2016 review. Is that what you are saying?”

“Sorry to interrupt you, but this is important. Why go for the arm’s length quality assurance scheme you are describing?”

“That was in 2016. We are now in 2021.”

“Given that there have been problems with insulation for decades—I mentioned spray foam and cavity wall in the first panel—why did you not foresee the need for this level of oversight? Why did you not look at the regulatory system, which was described as inadequate in the first panel?”

“You are the Permanent Secretary. Ultimately, you, with Ministers, have responsibility. This scheme was very high profile. Were you not giving it the attention that it deserved?”

“But ultimately it is your responsibility.”

“Okay—I do not want to spend too long on that. You also said that you did not oversee the scheme. Why not?”

“The Conservatives also privatised the national grid. We were warned at the time, in 1989, that that would not lead to massive investment from the private sector, and we are now living with the consequences of that lack of investment over something like 40 years. Does my hon. Friend agree that that Conservative failure …”

“The right hon. Lady was kind enough to go through her plan with me. I will be honest: I think there is merit in discussing some of the proposals—[Interruption.] No, it is not what Opposition Members think. There is merit in discussing some of the proposals on a cross-party basis, and I am sure the Government will do th…”