Speeches by Dixon.

“Indeed. This might be one for Mr Duffy. If the Environment Agency is concerned about soil health as well as water health, and the same agricultural practices may be affecting both soil and water, will we just be moving the fragmentation to a different place? Some of your EA functions on water will move into the new wat…”

“I do worry, because I am specifically thinking of farms. It is clear that the water sector will be under this one new regulator.”

“I have a small supplementary question. I have a lot of sympathy for my farmers, and my colleagues who are farmers. They already have a very long list of regulators that they have to engage with: the Environment Agency, Natural England, the Food Standards Agency, the Animal and Plant Health Agency, the Rural Payments Ag…”

“Okay. I think I will leave it there.”

“In terms of this risk-averse culture, at the end of the day, the leadership on this comes from DEFRA at all levels, including your own civil servants within the Department. How are you making sure that they are open to change and innovation?”

“Do you want to add anything, Mr Duffy?”

“Briefly, is there a problem with fear of JR, Marian? If not, what are you doing to change your risk-averse culture?”

“As Corry pointed out, some of this risk aversion comes from judicial review. Is it too easy at the moment for there to be judicial review against decisions that you and your regulators are making?”

“I am conscious of time, and I have a couple more points on the issue of risk aversion and culture. Regulated entities are keen on consistency, so I am hoping that what I heard in your answer, permanent secretary, was that you are moving to a more consistent approach to risk appetite for regulated entities. I recognise …”

“There is no such thing.”

“This is obviously an example of where there may be dispute between the different risk appetites of your regulators, DEFRA, different regulators who may also have a view and some of your customers—in this case, the water companies. As a Department how are you exploring and setting a risk appetite that allows for managed…”

“But how are you going to gather the evidence if you do not implement and monitor such solutions? I have seen correspondence saying that you have not been able to deploy enough inspectors to keep monitoring the downstream flows on this stretch of bathing water. I am keen to know how you are going to gather sufficient ev…”

“Paragraph 14 of the NAO Report states that “An overly risk-averse culture in Defra and the regulators has restricted some efforts to innovate and embrace new approaches.” You talked earlier about a “precautionary” approach; one could also call that a “risk-averse” approach. Just outside my constituency—but affecting th…”

“I will leave it there, Chair, for others to follow up.”

“I recognise, Permanent Secretary, that you are quite new in the Department; Sally, I think you have been there a bit longer in your role. Again, I am sure that many of the things in the reviews were familiar to you. Clearly, all this points somewhat towards DEFRA and your ability, or lack thereof, to offer strategic le…”

“Obviously, knowing that it is happening is the first step and enforcement is the second, but I am sure we will come back to this. I want to give Marian an opportunity to answer the same question: what do you take as the top priority for your regulator from the various reports?”

“For some of your failings—for example, on water pollution, which you raised—are you blaming the fact that you have not had clear guidance or have had too many competing and conflicting agendas, or do you take some responsibility for having not done enough?”

“As you say, we will come to a number of those, not least the one on complexity—or simplicity—with those 3,000 separate pieces of legislation. If you are on the receiving end of some of that, it can feel quite overwhelming and burdensome, which we will come to. I would like to give an opportunity, particularly to Philip…”

“Good afternoon to the witnesses, and thank you for coming in to speak to us. There have been a number of reviews, including the Corry review, which I just mentioned. In addition, there has been the so-called Cunliffe review, the independent review of the water industry. That touched on not only Ofwat, which was at a pr…”

“In addition to my cousin having a family farm, which is quite removed from this, the main conflict I wish to declare is that I personally know Dan Corry, the author of one of the independent reviews on environmental regulation for DEFRA that we are looking at. I believe he is also a member of DEFRA’s board.”